Mental Health Awareness Week: Anil Toraty

**CONTENT WARNING: Mentions suicide, depression, and poor mental health**

In today’s episode, Anil Toraty, Senior Director at Visa, talks to Simon about his lived experience of suicide thoughts and how running helps him look after his mental health.

Transcript

Mental Health Awareness Week: Anil Toraty transcript

**CONTENT WARNING: Mentions suicide, depression, and poor mental health**

Simon Blake

So, would you please introduce yourself to the listeners?

Anil Toraty

Sure, I'm an Anil Toraty. I'm a senior director at Visa.

Simon Blake

You very kindly come here to talk to us today about movement and mental health, I guess I met you through a work colleague and you were doing some work with Movember, the time of challenge. Do you want to just tell us a little bit about what you've already done around movement and Mental health.

Anil Toraty

Of course, sure. So, I've actually done two challenges. The first one I did was in November 2022 where I ran in incremental kilometres all of November. So I ran 1K day, 1K day one, 2k day two, 3k day three, all the way through to 30. I guess what I was really trying to represent was the importance of addressing your mental health. If you don't, that build up can be quite detrimental to people and I felt like that was the best physical representation. But I was going through a lot at that point in time, so I felt like this was the perfect outlet for me on a personal level, but also try and, you know, do something that will connect with people. 

And then obviously I'm also super ambitious. So, I wanted to kind of step it up the next year. So last year in November, I did around 600 kilometres. And then I'm quite a numbers geek, so I wanted to try and tie that into how my mental health has progressed through my life in my teens in my 20s and my 30s. So, I ran 10K's 20K's 30K's in three days cycles and I did that for the whole month as well. And I guess, you know, I was trying to drive some conversation, but I was also just trying to get as many people to join as possible at the same time.

Simon Blake

Thank you. And so, this Mental Health Awareness Week, the theme is movement for mental health. And so, I imagine that you are pleased that that is the thing this year. But can you tell us a bit about what movement for mental health means for you? To you?

Anil Toraty

Yeah. Look, I've been. I have to say I'm super lucky because I found something that really works for me, so I appreciate that when I talk about running a lot of people actually do ask is running the thing? And I think movement in general might be ‘the thing’ is just you know, finding what works for you. But I think for me running has worked out to be such an outlet for a lot of things, and I was just literally, saying a couple of minutes that I've now stopped running to figure out how far I'm going to run. I think it's just to create an amount of head space for myself as well, and I think I feel free. I get to be with my thoughts while I'm just moving, and I think also I kind of look around and soak in everything else that's happening. So, there's a lot more than just the running. But I think there's all these peripheral things that I think about and see and feel and get to enjoy.

Simon Blake

So, just to check, so you used to run to a mile or to a time, and now what you're saying is I'm running just into a space. Literally on a daily, weekly, whatever basis?

Anil Toraty

Yeah. 100% I think previously I probably used to think, OK, I'm going to try and get out for a 5K run or whatever it is now. It's probably a little bit more like how much do I have on my mind and how much do I need to think things through. Some days it's just to create some energy because I might feel a little bit flat. Some days it's to maybe try and process what I've got going on at work or whatever I've got going on in my mind, but now it's a little more, it's actually less about the running and it's more about giving myself that headspace.

Simon Blake

I think it's really interesting. I'd love to just explore a little bit more that sort of that feeling and focus because you said running isn't the thing and I think it's really important that everybody knows there will be a thing for everybody, but it won't necessarily be running. But can you just describe a bit more about what that feeling of seeing? Feeling? Hearing? Is that and what it does for you?

Anil Toraty

Yeah, it's strange, I've gone through so many kind of different stages of my evolution of running almost. And just to talk about a couple of things in particular, I had a a really traumatic ending to a relationship a few years ago now. And when I first started running around that period, I actually had so much anxiety that I couldn't physically breathe when I started running. So, you know when you get out for that first K or whatever it is, I struggled to breathe so much I needed to kind of let my body calm down. And that was when I realised that this physical movement is doing something to me, both mentally and physically. That's really important for me and I think you know, when I look back at that and look at where I am now. 

I think that transformation of all of the things I just said previously of I look around, I feel free. It's probably been so gradual that it's difficult to kind of nail one point, but I do think it just gives me some time to process my thoughts and my feelings, and I know that's probably not something everyone gets to do more regularly. 

I think we're just so caught up with your work or your family stuff or you know, your commute, home or whatever it is. And I think we think we have breaks during the day, but I get nothing like that except for running realistically. And for me, that's what it. That's what I think I'm trying to say when I'm. You know, even when I'm out, even if it's for half an hour. Nothing can distract me for that half an hour if that makes sense.

Simon Blake

Thank you. It's really helpful. I think you've come on to the podcast agreeing to Share your story. You've given us sort of little snippets of it so far, but. Could you just share a bit more of you know, your mental health journey and the relationship to running?

Anil Toraty

Yeah, absolutely. So just to put it into context, I only started running a few years ago, so running hasn't really been my thing for the longest of time. But my mental health has been a thing. For a very long time.

So, I grew up, born and brought up in India, but my parents are, you know, the best people in the world, I think. But they had super high expectations of me and my sister and created a lot of pressure. And I was compared a lot to everyone that was in and around my life and I think even when I was really, really young there was just a lot of expectation that I didn't realise was chipping away at both kind of my confidence and you know, if I didn't succeed was a bit of a failure sort of a mentality from very young. 

I think the first glimpses of this for me were in my early teens and in my in my mid-teens when I knew there was something not quite right with the way I was thinking and how I was feeling. But I just didn't know what it was and that was really tough. I didn't know how to kind of deal with it. I didn't know how to address it. I didn't know how to speak to people about it. I didn't know how to open up about it. Realistically. I kind of just went through it. I thought it was fine. 

And then in my 20s, I think it really started to boil over. Realistically, I got into, got into my career quite early. I started working at when I was. 18/19 and. I had quite a good trajectory at work, but by the time I was in my early 20s, quite ambitious, I had a really large team. I led a team of, you know, 20 odd people and I thought things were going really well for me, but really sick. 

I think deep down I had that same thought process of like, why am I not achieving more? Why am I not getting promoted? And it was the same kind of cycles of ambition and feeling like a failure. And I think at that point it really started to boil over. I started drinking a lot. I was quite destructive in in how I treated myself versus no one saw that at work. I think I was super high functioning, still would go in, still getting bigger projects and promotions and all that sort of stuff. But inside I was quite destructive in that I'd be drinking four or five nights a week. I'd be going out. I think. I've. I've said this out previously as well that I would drink and drive home. It's not something I'm proud of, but that's the position I was in. I wasn't strong enough to kind of end my life, but I wasn't strong enough to continue to live it, and I wanted that decision to be kind of out of my hands and I was happy. I guess I was happy if I died, or if I had an accident.

I think kind of looking back at it, it's really sad to think I got to that point. But I also it's really sad that I put probably a lot of other people's lives at risks with the decisions I made, which is something I'm not happy about, but. You know that's who I was then. I think you know, as my 20s went on, I started seeing some professional people for some help and I've been diagnosed with severe depression and suicidal tendencies. And all through my 20s and I think only in my 30s did I really start to address some of this stuff as well. I think I thought I was getting better because I got put on medication. 

I was also trying to, you know, just do other things. I was trying to communicate a little bit more with my, my friends and my sister. And at that time, my girlfriend and I felt like I was progressing. But I think a few years ago when I had this breakup. It just felt like everything unravelled very, very quickly for me because I felt lost in who I was. I kind of lost my way, I think also when you were in a relationship for that long, you forget who you are as an individual and I felt like the same sort of kind of cycles started to come back of, like questioning who I am. Am I good enough? Am I good enough partner or boyfriend? An employee? Your friend and all these sorts of things. And I think the fundamental difference to having gone through it more recently versus in my 30s is I channelled some of that into running trying to connect with people having some conversations rather than trying to lean either back on, you know, drinking or whatever. 

Mind you, I still have drinks. I still go out. I'm quite so sure that I think I tried to find a balance and knew that if I lent too deep into that side of things, it would be quite detrimental for me. So, I tried to focus that energy into running and hence why I think you know it all kind of sinks back into running and movement and trying to channel that energy into that direction as well. So yeah, tough journey. And as you can see, I think this is why running challenges me as well. It's not a point in time for me. It's not one single thing that happened that was really bad. Its things have always evolved. So, it was my mental health and so is my life and that's I'm still going to keep doing this, I think.

Simon Blake

And thank you for sharing. I guess just be interesting if you were to look back and to think. What could have made a difference? Or did is there something you wish could have been different work?

Anil Toraty

Do you know there's probably two things. One is I think culturally, I come from a very I was going to say unique situation. It's not a unique situation because there's a billion people in India who also come from the same sort of background of, we don't talk about mental health, my parents don't talk about it. My parents don't kind of comprehend this sort of stuff that I think or how I feel from a mental health perspective and also my parents only found out for the first time when I said it on national TV in 2022 that, you know, I've had mental health challenges and I've been so subtle. That was the first time my parents ever heard it. 

So, I wish the biggest thing was I had a better relationship. To be able to speak to my parents about this sort of stuff from a younger age because I think to some degree it just how I've grown up. I've figured it. I've had to figure it out on my own. And I've never had that kind of,  I've never been able to lean on my parents for this and have that not quite support, but just a little bit of that backing. And I think it's really difficult for me to figure this stuff out in my mid 30s and then into my 40s I've got a life worth of ingrained behavioural thought processes that now I'm trying to change. I think, if I was talking about it when I was 15/16/18 with my parents, I think I'd be a fundamentally different person right now. I don't know for the better or worse, but I would definitely be different. I think that's probably the one thing I think the other, the other element is I wish I'd. I just reached out to people more.

Anil Toraty

When some of my friends started hearing my story in my 30s, I had people from my 20s reach out to me to say like, it's really sad that I was standing next to you in a bar, or I was hanging out at your house and I didn't know this. And I only realise now how much people care and they want to be there for you, and I think we're under. We underestimate the willingness of people to want to help you. So, I wish I reached out more proactively, but I didn't know how and I wish that my parents just got it a little bit more and that I that I could have had more of those conversations as well.

Simon Blake

And one of the things which you talked about the challenge, but you've also did it very particularly raising awareness around men's mental health. So connected into November. I'd just be interested if you, yeah, any thoughts you have about men's mental health and reaching out and how much people care, yeah. You know, it's obviously still an area that people don't often don't talk about as much as they could. 

Anil Toraty

Yeah. It's very interesting, actually. The men that I kind of have connected with through this time. We're pretty willing to talk about it. It's just I don't know if it's like a generational thing. I feel like some of my friends who are kind of maybe 25 to 30, I think the willingness to talk about it is a little bit higher. And I think people, if I look at kind of 40-45 maybe a little bit older, I find it a little bit tougher to talk about that sort of stuff. I think it's just ingrained in how you've been brought up. But I think men on a whole, we need such a safe space to be able to talk about this sort of stuff, and it's, I think, actually, when I did the first challenge, one of the things that November was doing was like kind of shoulder-to-shoulder talks. 

So, I think that's the campaign that they had and running worked out really well. And that's when I realised all these little things that like men don't like to make eye contact when they talk about their feelings. They like to talk and it's such a strange thing. That's why we're great when we're at football games or when we're at the pub or when we're running, and you know you your kind of shoulder to shoulder in the car next to someone and these are the sort of little things I realised is we've got to be in the right situation with the right person. 

It's almost got to be like this Goldilocks moment to open up as men. And I've also found that I definitely cannot seem to crack that nut to have this conversation in a group like three or four men. It just never happens. For whatever reason. It's like the one guy who opens up about how they're feeling just by the nature of the situation, feels like the weakest, if that makes sense. Whereas if you're in a just one-on-one, I feel like it's a lot more of a safe space, hence why I'm saying it's got to be this like perfect Goldilocks moment. But once you crack that conversation, I do feel like, you know, it's a little bit easier, but a lot of persistence required in this situation a lot.

Simon Blake

And and it's I guess the key point from that is there is finding somebody you trust, isn't it? And I always remember my mum used to say, yeah, nothing is too big or small to talk about. And then the next sentences were, but you choose who you want to talk about them too. And it's. Yeah, there isn't only one person. 

If I can just move, you from that very generous sharing of your personal story into thinking about the workplace. You know, senior manager in a in a big organisation with a big job and with the lots of shifts and changes in the way that we work over the last few years with increased flexibility.If you were to think about movement, wellbeing, and performance. What do you think the opportunities and challenges are for employers and employees as we navigate this sort of new mode of working?

Anil Toraty

Yeah, I think there's so much to unpack here because I think a lot of companies at the moment talk about breaking the stigma around mental health, and I feel like that's such a top level thing that we're doing. 

I actually think we've done a good enough job on breaking that stigma to start actually actioning some things as well. And I think that really comes down to leaders in the business. It's funny because I had someone in my office in my team today in the office when I said hello to her. She yawned and she said hello and she was just like, oh, I'm sorry. I'm just tired. I don't know why. And I was like, you know what? It's fine if you're going to have a six out of 10 day, you don't every day doesn't need to be 10 out of 10. It's fine. I don't know that I'm not that fussed about it sort of thing. But I think as a leader, the movement aspect is really important. So, of course I have a run club in the office. 😊 

But I don't expect everyone to join. But what I do do is, I want to create the right level of balance for my team to make sure that they, when they go home, whether that's in the morning or in the evening, whatever they've got time to do something for themselves. And I think we underestimate how important that is to create your own energy every single day. Because look, when we get really busy, the two things I drop immediately are exercise and eating well, and fundamentally, they're so important to me. If I don't eat well and if I don't exercise. I struggle because I feel like I'm letting myself down. And I'm probably it's diminishing returns in terms of work I might be doing 12-14 hour days, but I'm not as productive as if. I was really happy and doing an 8-hour day. 

I think we don't think about that unique aspect enough as leaders and that's where I'd like to double down and drive some of those conversations. I think this is where managers also need to be trained to be a little bit more empathetic. I don't know if you can train people to be more empathetic, but like wanting to connect with your staff members on an individual level is super important, because I also feel like you spent 8 hours in the. Office. You spend 8 hours with your family. What happens with your family or what happens with your friends or whatever is just as important. Because that's what you're bringing into the office versus what you're taking out of the office and taking back home. I think understanding where that intersectionality is, because if you have a great day at home, you're going to bring that energy into the office. And if you have a great day in the office, you're going to take that energy home. And it's like the negative also applies. It's if I don't care about my staff members. You know, one of my team members, kids, had a really bad night's sleep. I've got to give them that leeway. Do you know what I mean? It's so important to know them on a human level as well. 

Simon Blake

You talked a lot that specifically about being back in, in the office and. I guess with that comes commutes often, and some natural opportunities for movement and I don't know how flexible your office is, but whether you've had conversations with staff about how important movement is in that overall performance, yeah, wherever you're working.

Anil Toraty

Yeah, it's very interesting because I think there are people at every company by the way. And now I have to say at my work, we're pretty flexible. I think like most companies, we're probably out of 50/50 hybrid sort of a policy, but I do think when you're fully hybrid and you're fully remote, sorry and you're just sitting at your computer or, you know, in your study, the lack of movement is unbelievable and you don't realise it until you look at your little smart watch or whatever and you're like, I've done 600 steps to and from the kitchen. I've made eight coffees or teas and had four muffins or whatever it is versus like the energy that you can get from, hey, let's go for a coffee together and let's make this a meeting elsewhere, not in a room or at our desks. 

I think people underestimate that and a lot of people have defaulted to, I can do my job from anywhere and I know I can do it from anywhere because I've done it through COVID and I completely accept that as a leader. I don't underestimate that you can't. I don't question it. I just think what you can generate for yourself in terms of energy and what you can generate for others around you. Is super important and I think that's where I try and drive and even my team will try and come in together a couple of days of the week, you know, we chat a bit, we do our work because then you take some of that energy. You also take it home. And I think you are amplifying energy in every direction. And I talk about energy a lot because I feel like that's basically for me what running is.

Simon Blake

Interesting. The running creates energy, takes energy, gives you?

Anil Toraty

100% creates energy for me. I know, I know. We were just talking about it. I know you get tired, but how you feel and like what you can get out of it and what you can get out of it for the rest of the day. I think for me is way more than that. Like the energy that you spend.

Simon Blake

And it's an important distinction, isn't it between you can be tired at the end of something, but have high energy, you know, from having experienced it.

Anil Toraty

Absolutely! I actually, was in Paris a couple of weeks ago. I was just saying I ran the Paris Marathon and you'd think like after 42 kilometres, you're done. But I was on such a high, and that's what I mean. You spend a little bit of energy, a lot of energy, but what you get back, I think from any movement, yeah, is unbelievable.

Simon Blake

I was really struck earlier as you were talking about it, about that opportunity to process the opportunity to join the dots and make things work, work out how you're feeling and thoughts as well. If you had one take home message for people listening to this podcast about movement and mental health, what would you say?

Anil Toraty

I would say have no expectations and just do something. I know it sounds really simple cause some days. It's really easy to set goals and think like I have to do this, or I have to run 5K or 10K or whatever, but I think some days just getting out and then I turn around I do a few K I'm like I'm not feeling it, I'm going home. But I've just tried something, and I think even just that little bit of energy spent. You don't always have to be successful. I do think sometimes going out without any expectations is a great thing. I think you give a level of freedom to your mind to think about whatever you're thinking about kind of process it and you don't have to listen to music, or you don't have to listen to a podcast or whatever and just kind of see where that movement. Makes you, whether that's running or writing or whatever it is, I think kind of just go with the flow sometimes is amazing.

Simon Blake

Yeah. Thanks very much for sharing so much generously with us, both personal and also some practical ideas for the workplace.